On to districts, rule interpertation?

[Cooper]

So, my son ended up first in pack (2nd year in a row). 2nd place was an average speed of .13 sec behind him. This using stock wheels & axles and graphite only.

We're thinking about entering districts this year for a little more competition. I'm thinking we'll need to build a new car because of the rule differences and have 2 weeks to get it done.

One rule has me bothered though:

* Each wheel's outer rolling surface (tread) must remain parallel to the track surface.

We can run 3 wheels and extend the wheel base, but if the wheels must be parallel to the track, that means no canted rear wheels or bent front axle?

Should I just drill the front wheel angled slightly to still ride the rail & hope for the best? or try to bend the axle less to adjust steer while still keeping the wheel flat?

Should I still cant the rear wheels slightly (thinking maybe 1 degree or less), or just drill them straight?

This would be our first time entering districts, so I'm not sure what to expect. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[Crash Enburn]

Your pack doesn't adopt the District rules? Odd.

In answer to your question, yes, you should go ahead and drill the axles at a 1° to help pull the wheels away from the body. Same thing for the (dominant) front axle: drill it straight, put a very small bend in it (1-2° or so), so you can adjust steer but still have the wheel running flat. Drill the other front axle higher to keep it off the track.

You've got this.

 

[NeedforSpeed]

In my experience (what little I have) the district races are where the "rules" get crazy. We had that same exact rule until I got on the committee and had it changed. First of all the even if the axles are canted the tread is parallel with track when the car is setting on the track. At least they are with the degree of cant I use. The main reason for canting is to keep the wheels to ride on the heads of the axles not the body of the car. Then what about all the cars with accidental cant..ie..axle hole drilled improperly, axle put in wrong (using the standard axle slots will easily be prone to some degree of axle angle), axle unknowingly bent..etc. All rookie mistakes and half of the tiger cubs would be disqualified if it was followed.

End rant and know I will give you my opinion. If your car you used to race in the pack is canted I would try to race it in the district. If you have time to build another one build it without the cant. I still think you can get it to be a railrider by offsetting the rear axle holes. The other guys on here would know more about that. I'm not sure how steer it without bending the front axle though. You can bend it a little without making it obvious and get a little steering out of it I would think. Good luck!

 

[TRE]

Drill your right front with toe in it ..it will sit flat but still steer into the rail..put a credit card or 2 under the front of the silver bullet when drilling..you will have to drill a couple and test it to get the amount of steer you want..drill the left higher to raise it

 

[ngyoung]

Using 1* cants for everything will allow for the tread to sit flat with the slop in the wheel bore. Doing what TRE suggested to put a little toe in the DFW drill will allow more steer while still having a 1* bent axle to have some tunability.

 

[Obsessedderbydad]

I'd ask the committee or whoever came up with this rule for an interpretation. It's hard enough alone with stock axles and wheels to get them all to run parallel, let alone cant'ing them on purpose.

 

[Safer Racer]

Don't even get me started on stupid rules.
They just came out with new rules in our district after 25 packs out of 26 ran there races.
So I went to the last pack race this weekend----which they run the district also and called them out on the rules:
Here is part of my email to the District ---Enjoy

I told them I was there as I had some concerns with the rules for the 2015 District Pinewood Derby. They told me they were aware of this, as they

had gotten the emails from you. They also told me about having you over for dinner at their house and writing the rules for the race. So from there, I wanted to go over the rules

with him as they pertain to his pack race. By this time, about half of the cars were already checked in. I took "Pack leader" over to the table where the cars were being kept after

inspection to point out the flaws in the new District rules. At this time, I pointed out to him that over HALF his cars were ILLEGAL. To be honest they were illegal to last years

rules as well (This is why we need common sense Rules) !!! His reply to me was " Well I consider all of these cars to be legal".

The rules infractions were:

1. Extended wheel base Illegal in 2014 & 2015 rules

2. All wheels not touching the ground illegal in 2015

3. Axle slots not being used illegal in 2015

4. Bent Axles illegal in 2015

5. Axles not being parallel with slots illegal in 2015

and these are just a few I saw in over half the field of cars

I have attached pictures of a few cars with some of these infractions.

My Question to you is,how can he expect other packs to follow the rules when it clear to me his pack DOES NOT :-(

They even sat down with you and rewrote the rules with Specific wording against many of these infractions.

I’m not sure why they didn’t know there were Pre-existing Rules for the Lenape District after hosting the pinewood derby for the last 2 years.

Is it an ethics concern of Scouts to have the people that own the track, run the event, run a pack,inspect the cars , have a financial interest in the event ---Write the rules?

I told you before--- If I help you my son Will Not Race !!! That would be like me Umpiring my sons Baseball Game when I am the Manager of the Team.

When I discussed my concerns, it did not seem that they were validated or that they were understood to possibly be a larger concern for Scouts and should be explored. The Pack leader's told me how they were moving in a few months and they were leaving Scouts altogether.

It was evident that the Pack leader's work very hard to host the District event and have good intentions,however, we need to make sure this is done right !!! We don"t want to lose Scouts as the PineWood Derby is one of the #1 attractors to Cub Scouts!!!

In closing, I will submit to you common sense rules for consideration within the week, for next year’s derby.

 

[Safer Racer]

I am going there with our street stock with wheel weights & if they don't like it
we have an identical Basx with no wheel weights. I will also get my wife to take my son through tech. They seem to give the women less B.S. If they don't like that I will going home and watch NASCAR.

 

[Rocket car]

Yes, the problem with districts is that a different pack runs it each year. The rules generally leave room for interpretation, so every year the rules change.

 

[derbychip]

rules are tough.... not everyone will be happy or agree

but at the very least if the rules are there like them or not EVERYONE SHOULD BE INSPECTED TO THE LAST DEGREE to ensure there following the rules, that is why IMO the rules need to be easy to inspect in a timely manner before the race (no tear downs)

does your council have a rule set? my thought is everyone under the council should adopt those rules, I'm going to neck out for a min... if these pack/district races are qualifying races for the council you need the same rule set... it would be like qualifying a Indy car then racing a NASCAR in the race

here is a quote i heard when trying to get our packs rules the same as the council
"cant we just go on the persons word" in a perfect world yes but when there is a competition NO not everyone has the same respect for there "word"

 

[Cooper]

I did email asking for clarification, waiting to hear back. We ended up drilling anyway. Drilled the rears at 1.5 degrees, and the FD straight. The rear wheels sit flat and move to the heads when slow rolled, so I think we're good there. Still working on bending the front to get just the right amount of steer while keeping the tread flat.

Car should be fast, but I'm going to be mad if we get there and see a bunch of cars racing with canted wheels!

 

[Rocket car]

1.5 degrees drilled in the back will probably not be enough to stop it from wiggling( slash kill your time). I would run no less than 2.5 degrees in the rear if possible. 3 degrees would even be better with a car built like that.

 

[Cooper]

Well, if I get an email back saying canted wheels are allowed, we'll scrap this car and build another. If the rule stands and wheel treads must be parallel to the track, 1.5 degrees is the most I can get while keeping the wheels flat.

A quick run down the test track (with unprepped wheels/axles, 3" of steer) and there's no wiggle. Heck, it was only .008 slower than our best time with the car that won the pack.. That's before any prep or lube, so I think this car has potential!

 

[Crash Enburn]

It's a good-looking, well engineered car. Regardless of what shenanigans might occur at the race, you've built a fast car to the rules.