Rules Help

[chennemann]

Last year my boy took first place and it looks like they are modifying the rules this year to take away the advantages we had.

My thoughts are the following:
Could I tow the wheels like I did last year? They would still be aligned.
I would assume having the bent nail in the front would be illegal. All 4 wheels will need to touch.
I have to use Zero Friction Graphite instead of oil. Would it be best to do oil first then graphite over it?
Would using nail polish on the car to reduce friction with the wheel be legal?
Dynasty BASX
Dynasty BSA with points

Would this pass inspection?

Please let me know what I can use without issues:

1. The BSA National Supply Pinewood Derby Car, part # 17006, must be used.
2. Details such as steering wheels, driver decals, fenders, paintings, and exterior details are permissible as long as the inclusion of these details does not exceed the length, width, weight, height, and ground clearance specifications and race inspectors can still view wheels and axles for inspection.

Dimensions 1. The total overall width must NOT exceed 2-3/4 (2.75) inches and the total overall length must not exceed 7 inches. 2. The wheel track must be between 1-3/4 (1.75) inches and 1-7/8 (1.875) inches. 3. The clearance between the bottom of the car (including added-weights) and the flat surface on which the car is placed must be at least 3/8 (0.375) inches. 4. The car’s height may be no more than 6 inches as measured from a flat surface to the highest point on the vehicle. 5. The car must not hang up on the track during the race.

Weight and Weights 1. The total weight of the racer must not exceed 5.00 ounces (141.75 grams) which shall be determined by the official scale. 2. No loose materials of any kind will be allowed on the car. 3. No taped-on weights will be allowed. Must be glued, screwed or sunk in. 4. Liquid or movable weights are not allowed. For example, the BB shots in a hollowed out compartment of the race car must be firmly attached to the race car and not loose in the compartment. 5. Weights must be attached to car body only (not to wheels or axels).

Axles and Wheels 1. The stock wheel base length of 4 13/32" must be maintained to within 1/32" tolerance. 2. The two pre-cut slots provided on the block of wood in the kit are the required location for placing the official BSA nail axles into the car. YOU MAY NOT change axle location (cannot move forward, backwards, raise or lower). 3. Wheel bearings, washers and bushings are prohibited. Body skins applied between the wheel and the body is considered as a bushing / washer. 4. The use of spring, shocks, or starting devices is strictly prohibited. 5. The Derby Car MUST be freewheeling. 6. Do not cover axle or axles. 7. Axles may not be altered in any way (except the light sanding to remove the burs). 8. The axles must be the steel axles supplied with the wheels (they will be checked with a magnet). 9. Axles MUST be aligned with each other (front right axle even with the front left axle and back right axle even with the back left axle). 10. The wheels must be those from the BSA Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Kit or the BSA approved (will have a BSA logo on them) Black or Colored wheels. NO SUBSTITUTIONS ARE PERMITTED! 11. Competition wheels sold by hobby shops and modified wheels that have been altered are not allowed. 12. Wheels CANNOT BE MODIFIED other than removing the seam from the tread area as instructed in the kit. 13. Hubcaps (such as stickers on the outside of the wheel), paint or any other markings on wheels is not allowed. 14. CARS MUST HAVE 4 WHEELS ONLY AND SIT EQUALLY ON A FLAT SURFACE!

Lubricants 1. Only dry graphite or BSA approved Teflon may be used for lubrication of wheels on axles. If any other type is used, the car will be disqualified. 2. Derby Cars must be lubricated for the last time BEFORE check-in and will race all races without further lubrication.

Design 1. Scouts and Parents must be willing to certify that, on their honor, the Scout designed the car and participated in the fabrication of the car.

Thanks for the help.

 

[BuckeyeRacing]

Those are the most stingent rules I have ever seen.

I hope if they are indeed to follow them, that do check every car for all the mentioned rules.

Per your questions, and granted this is answered as if I was doing the check in based on the rules provided:

My thoughts are the following:
Could I tow the wheels like I did last year?
Yes because all 4 could sit equally on a surface.

They would still be aligned.
I would assume having the bent nail in the front would be illegal.
I wouldn't assume that

All 4 wheels will need to touch.
I have to use Zero Friction Graphite instead of oil. Would it be best to do oil first then graphite over it?
No oil and graphite don't mix well

Would using nail polish on the car to reduce friction with the wheel be legal?
If they are going as far as vinyl wraps being a lubricant, then I would argue so is nail polish

Dynasty BASX
Dynasty BSA with points

Would this pass inspection?
Everything will depend on who and how they follow rules on inspection, then again, if our pack had these rules then no one woulda passed.

 

[chennemann]

I will ask about cambering/toe alignment. It seems they definitely do not want cars with only 3 wheels touching.

I could set it up the same as last year with the rear cambered and the front right bent as long as I can get them all to touch at the same time. My guess is many kids cars do not have all 4 touching equally even if they try.

 

[txchemist]

You can get away with normal canting for one more year and then that will get ruled out- You can make a mistake and go to the Scout shop and ask for BSA approved Teflon, and you might get more than one thing offered for sale- like KYRTOX made by DuPont and considered liquid Teflon by many. The rule says OR BSA Teflon. I think by next year any bent axle will be illegal, time to start working on your stealth skills.
Learn how to do a 1 degree cant, and look at my example of adding drift with paper shim to a cut body. I had to cut and re-glue many cars this year for one pack, the one with the best design came in first- and when they saw some glue where I did not have time to sand away, they might ban glue next year.

 

[ngyoung]

Reading through your rules I don't see anything that would prevent you from having canted wheels. They are still aligned directly across from each other. Just cant the DFW positive and the NDFW negative. With the natural slop in the wheel, giving the axle a 1* cant will still allow the wheels to sit flat and still likely to travel to the axle head. That will also keep more weight on the DFW then the NDFW, angling them opposite of each other, if they clarify that there needs to be 4 on the floor. I don't see that being enforced in the rules though and I would assume the usual 3-wheel rail running setup is legal.

The slot rules, if you want to play it straight, you can still drill into the slot but the bit may wander into the slot more. You will probably be fine just pushing the axle in at a slight angle or using a small flathead screwdriver to pull up on the axle tip once installed to give it a slight angle.

The other option which they didn't specifically prohibit is to drill your holes and make your own slot. It said the original slot location needs to be used but didn't say you had to use the original slots. Match the slot location on the other side and drill accordingly, then saw a slot up to your holes. That will give you the best chance of your bit not walking. You could say your slots are not square (which chances are they aren't) and ask if it is OK to make new square ones that match the same dimensions.

Since oil is prohibited you will be just fine skipping the whole nail polish thing if you're worried they'll flag it. graphite rubbed into the hub area still works really good. Using paint and a good clear coat I don't think a small region around the hub coated in the sally hanson would be detectable. Hell, you could clear coat the whole side of the car in the polish, just because that clear coat is harder then enamel or lacquer doesn't make it illegal. Until they ban anything around the axle slot they're not going to be able to distinguish which clear coat paints are allowed and which aren't.

I will ask about cambering/toe alignment. It seems they definitely do not want cars with only 3 wheels touching.

I could set it up the same as last year with the rear cambered and the front right bent as long as I can get them all to touch at the same time. My guess is many kids cars do not have all 4 touching equally even if they try.

 

[chennemann]

So would you cant all 4 wheels the same and use txchemist way of drifting to be the safest way of following the rules?

How about using:
Dynasty BASX wheels
Dynasty BSA with points axles
or the weights in the wheels if I cut a slot to see the axles? How much does this help in time? I am not sure it is worth it for a cub scout.

 

[Vitamin K]

How about using:
Dynasty BASX wheels
Dynasty BSA with points axles

Just judging from this verbiage here:

Competition wheels sold by hobby shops and modified wheels that have been altered are not allowed.

It sounds like you aren't permitted to buy wheels that have been pre-trued or what-have-you. Would they be able to tell you were using Dynastys? Probably not. But you'd use them with the knowledge that you're really not following the spirit of the rules.

Personally, I would buy a quantity of BSA wheel tubes and evaluate them for quality and pick the best ones to race with.

 

[chennemann]

I understand it isn't following the spirit of the rules. But many of the parents work at Ford and have access to cnc machines etc... I do not have access to them. I am not trying to use cheetahs or anything extreme. Just want the best wheel/axles anyone else will have.

From reading the description BASX wheels should pass any inspection.
Will the Dynasty BSA pass inspection also if looked at? It says it will pass the magnet test.

 

[ngyoung]

I would go with the Dynasty BASX without removing the double step and pick the 1.18 size. For axles I would maybe go for the zinc speed axles. Those are made out of the same material and same diameter as the stock axles but are machined round and straight.

Like I said, I don't see anything preventing the usual canting. Rears will look like this:

/----

Front will look like one of these depending on which side you want the DFW:

/----/ <--DFW--> ----

The DFW axle will be angled down, positive cant, the ndfw angled up negative cant. Both rears negative cant. Most guys cant the rear axles around 3 degrees and it varies on the bend for the DFW but it is around the 1-3 degree range. The more bend the more touchy it is to tune the steer.

If they push back and say that wheels need to ride flat you can use 1 degree and the wheels will sit flat but have a better chance to migrate where you want. Even with everyone attempting to get them installed perfectly parallel to the ground none of them are going to be perfect. If you are intentionally hedging toward the angles I noted above you will have a more stable car that you can still tune to steer into the rail.

 

[Vitamin K]

I understand it isn't following the spirit of the rules. But many of the parents work at Ford and have access to cnc machines etc... I do not have access to them. I am not trying to use cheetahs or anything extreme. Just want the best wheel/axles anyone else will have.

From reading the description BASX wheels should pass any inspection.
Will the Dynasty BSA pass inspection also if looked at? It says it will pass the magnet test.

I feel your pain, I really do. It sucks to know that other people are going to skirt the rules and get away with it. Still, if I know what the rules are, I personally feel a burden to keep them, regardless of verifiability or what anybody else might be doing.

But...that's all I'm going to preach on this. /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif

 

[DerbyJP]

I feel your pain, I really do. It sucks to know that other people are going to skirt the rules and get away with it. Still, if I know what the rules are, I personally feel a burden to keep them, regardless of verifiability or what anybody else might be doing.

But...that's all I'm going to preach on this. /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif

Gotta agree with Vitamin K here.

 

[Crash Enburn]

The "spirit of the rules". /images/boards/smilies/rolleyes.gif It seems to me that the spirit of these rules is to prevent someone from building a fast car through anything but sheer luck.

7. Axles may not be altered in any way (except the light sanding to remove the burs). According to this rule, you cannot polish the axle. For that matter, you'd be hard pressed to remove the burrs using only a "light sanding". I don't know what to recommend with this. At all. Sanding the axle such that the grooves and burrs would go away, and then various grits to 3000 or more would probably no longer count as a "light sanding". /images/boards/smilies/eek.gif And it would appear that using a file is definitely verboten.
You could have all the winning cars inspected post race, and any with polished axles would be disqualified according to this rule.

1. The stock wheel base length of 4 13/32" must be maintained In the six (7?) years I've been involved with the PWD, this is the very first time I've ever seen the wheelbase listed as anything other than 4 3/8". So, per NGYoung's recommendation, you could legally cut your own slots for a 4 7/16" wheelbase. Woo.

YOU MAY NOT change axle location (cannot move forward, backwards, raise or lower). Technically, if you were to cut the front of the block, you'd be moving the axle slots forward on your car. I read that rule as saying that if your car is shorter than the original block of wood, your car has broken the rules. This is a BS rule. One that they only plan to enforce if your car remains the full 7" and has the wheels moved all the way back. You might be well served to cut the back of the car (the short axle to end) down to 5/8" of the rear axle. This will allow you to condense your weight instead of having dead weight further back that would need to be countered on the other side.

...paint or any other markings on wheels is not allowed. What kind of monster would tell a kid he can't paint the letters on the wheels if he wants to?? (See my avatar)

14. CARS MUST HAVE 4 WHEELS ONLY ... Looks like these kids can't make tanks or anything that they'd add extra, decorative wheels for. /images/boards/smilies/rolleyes.gif

AND SIT EQUALLY ON A FLAT SURFACE! All four must sit equally with each other? Or just their axle partner? If the former, the recommended 1* drill angle/front axle bend is the way to go. If only equal side-to-side, then those angles can be upped to the more "normal" angles you'll find talked about on these forums.

Do Your Best

... to get these rules changed to simpler, more enforceable rules.

 

[ngyoung]

Doh. Missed #14. So out of everything I said before I would still go with the 1* angles in the configuration I showed. The NDFW with a 1* bent axle can be turned so that it barely touches. For the DFW you may not get as much steer as you want but should still be able to get it to consistently veer into the rail.

 

[chennemann]

The rules are very odd to me and I do feel that it takes away from some of the fun my son and I had last year. We went to a local hobby shop and tried to tune the car. He love seeing it improve when we adjusted the bent nail. But I don't think our pack master will allow a bent nail this year.

I talked with the new pack master and he feels we shouldn't even be able to drill the holes. We should just push them into the slot. I don't read the rules that way and also don't see how they would know.

So I was thinking of doing the following:

1) Put the front axles in as straight as possible, I will predrill. I have a Proxxon drill press with the adjustable table. Then use TxChemist idea of cutting the car and using paper shims to create an approximate 1 percent steer. I will also move the front over as suggested.

2) I am hoping to get clarification on if canting the wheels like this /------ is allowed. I am guessing from the comment from the pack master he will not allow that either. So I was thinking that I could cut the back part of the vehicle and getting it to max width. Or would I be better off trying to put in a 1 percent cant? Of have the block sold by derbydad4hire and I could put in a smaller pin so that cant would be way less. I know in theory that cant would be better, but everyone notice the cant last year and was talking about it. I believe that is why the rules changed.

3) I am still very torn on the wheels and hubs. I may look to see if I can get a match set of original wheels that all came out of the same mold.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions. I want to instill honesty in my son. But I also want to instill to do what you can to win within the rules. Working hard to get a competitive advantage is good, IMHO. I do that in my job daily.

He won last year because he took his car to the track and played with it to make it faster. He polished everything and did the prep. Yes I helped with setting up the drill to get the wheels correct, but he pushed down the drill. Yes he had an advantage because I went on hear and learned a ton. But he implemented the plan.

 

[Quicktimederby]

Would this be breaking the rules? It says you have to use;
1. The BSA National Supply Pinewood Derby Car, part # 17006, must be used.
The tubes of wheels do carry that part #

Personally, I would buy a quantity of BSA wheel tubes and evaluate them for quality and pick the best ones to race with.

The sad thing is, is the rules are to strict and can allow for any car to QD at any point. And then they try and quilt you into doing nothing for fear for breaking a rule. Very sad!!!

 

[Vitamin K]

Would this be breaking the rules? It says you have to use;
1. The BSA National Supply Pinewood Derby Car, part # 17006, must be used.
The tubes of wheels do carry that part #

Personally, I would buy a quantity of BSA wheel tubes and evaluate them for quality and pick the best ones to race with.

The sad thing is, is the rules are to strict and can allow for any car to QD at any point. And then they try and quilt you into doing nothing for fear for breaking a rule. Very sad!!!

I agree that these are poopy rules, and seem to be trending towards making the winner just lucky as opposed to a skilled builder. However, I think aftermarket wheels should be legal, per rule #10

10. The wheels must be those from the BSA Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Kit or the BSA approved (will have a BSA logo on them) Black or Colored wheels. NO SUBSTITUTIONS ARE PERMITTED

Nothing like rules that aren't internally consistent, eh? /images/boards/smilies/eek.gif

 

[ngyoung]

I think I would push back with the pack master about the rules not allowing any room for teaching. The PM has restricted it to basically an art project. All they end up with is cut, sand, paint, slap the wheels on, and cross your fingers. BSA is really pushing STEM skills and PWD is one of the original and most popular activities that teaches the kids about physics, velocity, and friction. You can also suggest derby work shops to provide opportunities for any scouts and parents that don't have tools. Allowing more to learn and apply building techniques to make a faster car. You will likely not change anything this year but may help change things for future derbies.

That popular "Derby Car Wins Using Science" video was recently re-edited by Boys Life magazine to make it even more kid friendly and promoted by BSA. All the science that is being taught in this video is completely lost with that PM's mindset and their new rules.

[video]http://youtu.be/a5A6SCE0eVw[/video]

 

[Crash Enburn]

3) I am still very torn on the wheels and hubs. I may look to see if I can get a match set of original wheels that all came out of the same mold.

Go to the scout shop and put together sleeves of wheels with mold #s of 2, 3, 8, and/or 15. These are the best molds straight outta the box. A light sanding to remove the mold marks/lines, and you're golden.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions. I want to instill honesty in my son. But I also want to instill to do what you can to win within the rules. Working hard to get a competitive advantage is good, IMHO. I do that in my job daily.

He won last year because he took his car to the track and played with it to make it faster. He polished everything and did the prep. Yes I helped with setting up the drill to get the wheels correct, but he pushed down the drill. Yes he had an advantage because I went on here and learned a ton. But he implemented the plan.

Good on you!

 

[chennemann]

I talked to the scout shop and they told me all 4 wheels need to be completely flat on the table. I asked if 1 percent angle be acceptable and she said no. I am guessing if they really do enforce this rule a large percentage of scouts are going to be ruled out.

I love that science video, wish they could do that.

 

[Vitamin K]

I talked to the scout shop and they told me all 4 wheels need to be completely flat on the table. I asked if 1 percent angle be acceptable and she said no. I am guessing if they really do enforce this rule a large percentage of scouts are going to be ruled out.

I love that science video, wish they could do that.

Why is the Scout Shop the arbiter on your Pack's rules? I'm a little confused. /images/boards/smilies/confused.gif