I would guess that there is more speed gain in the plug and play block than buying the lightest wheels DD4H sells, In your case.
In need of some help please!
- Thread starter 92hatchattack
- Start date
92hatchattack said:
With the Bullet and a press you can drill the rears canted but the fronts you want to drill straight then bend your DFW axle to give you some steer to ride the rail. Riding the rail with the DFW is the fastest way to build a car, if done correctly the rears will never touch the rail and slow you down. When DD4H drills his plug and play blocks he uses 2 different presses to get the angles. With limited time I would get the plug and play block then get a bullet for next year.
Ahhh, I see. So alot of you guys that have pinewood derby as a serious hobby use the pre drilled blocks then I guess. So much to learn.
I really really do appreciate all the help and advice!
I really really do appreciate all the help and advice!
the predrilled blocks are designed for guys that dont have proper tools or time..pros bend the front axle
Here's some more info, I'll post some more links for you.
http://www.pinewoodderbyonline.com/post/keys-to-win-from-the-pinewood-derby-king-5782181
http://www.pinewoodderbyonline.com/post/going-4-sub-3-0-by-wracing-5597549
http://www.pinewoodderbyonline.com/post/keys-to-win-from-the-pinewood-derby-king-5782181
http://www.pinewoodderbyonline.com/post/going-4-sub-3-0-by-wracing-5597549
I haven't responded to this thread yet. I have a slew of grandsons I have been helping for the last 3 years. Every one of them never lost a race, and went all the way to council run offs.
Rules varied all over the place. One required "4 on the floor, wheels run flat" i.e. no cant. DD4H drilled me a block with those specs. I had time, so I entered it into the NPWDRL races. Obviously it didn't win, BUT, almost all runs were sub 3 seconds on a 42 foot BestTrack. (remember this was 4 on the floor running wheels flat). Enough to run away from anybody in most BSA races.
Advice:
Once you get a pre-drilled block, you still need to work on the wheels and axles.
I shaped the body, sent it all in a bag with prepped wheels and axles (I did the prepping, but could have bought it from John).
The boys and their fathers had to put it all together, paint it, even decaled and/or stuck all kinds of junk on top, and they all won. Some of the cars looked terrible from my point of view, but there is nothing like watching a boy walk away with a trophy as big as he is.
Two of the boys ran in two councils in Arizona. At the council races, the 2nd and 3rd place boys were only less than 1/100 behind them. That means that by the time the boys reached that level, the were competing with boys/fathers that were using the same products we used.
However, by sending all the parts in a bag, the boys still spent hours on their cars. Much more than the little bit I did, I just supplied the parts.
AND seeing the boy's BSA racing career is usually 3 years or less, much cheaper than buying the Silver Bullet, Drill Press and any other tools.
Oh yes -- use oil. By the time the car is eventually raced, it is all but dry except within the wheel bore, and only 1/10,000'ths thin. But we did use graphite on the inner edges of the wheels (although only needed on the DFW)
Rules varied all over the place. One required "4 on the floor, wheels run flat" i.e. no cant. DD4H drilled me a block with those specs. I had time, so I entered it into the NPWDRL races. Obviously it didn't win, BUT, almost all runs were sub 3 seconds on a 42 foot BestTrack. (remember this was 4 on the floor running wheels flat). Enough to run away from anybody in most BSA races.
Advice:
Once you get a pre-drilled block, you still need to work on the wheels and axles.
I shaped the body, sent it all in a bag with prepped wheels and axles (I did the prepping, but could have bought it from John).
The boys and their fathers had to put it all together, paint it, even decaled and/or stuck all kinds of junk on top, and they all won. Some of the cars looked terrible from my point of view, but there is nothing like watching a boy walk away with a trophy as big as he is.
Two of the boys ran in two councils in Arizona. At the council races, the 2nd and 3rd place boys were only less than 1/100 behind them. That means that by the time the boys reached that level, the were competing with boys/fathers that were using the same products we used.
However, by sending all the parts in a bag, the boys still spent hours on their cars. Much more than the little bit I did, I just supplied the parts.
AND seeing the boy's BSA racing career is usually 3 years or less, much cheaper than buying the Silver Bullet, Drill Press and any other tools.
Oh yes -- use oil. By the time the car is eventually raced, it is all but dry except within the wheel bore, and only 1/10,000'ths thin. But we did use graphite on the inner edges of the wheels (although only needed on the DFW)
I am going to throw my 2 cents in here for you. To start off I am not a pro, but have pretty good results so far. If you have 2 weeks, no drill press, and no silver bullet a pre drilled block is the way to go. That being said, drilling your own axle holes with these tools is pretty simple. I dont really get the comment about doing it 30 times before getting it right. The only thing you need to ensure is that the press table is square with the drill. Pass that it is pretty hard to mess up. You might try and find someone that already has these tools. Sounds to late but you might find a pwd workshop with these things. I know the one I help with has about 4-5 silver bullets/blocks laying around and 2 drill presses.
As for the wheels I would say the Cheetahs are conservarive. To give you an idea stock wheels weight about 2.7 gram a piece. The cheetahs are 2 grams. You can find wheels for 1 gram and less. They get very fragile at that point, but it gives you an idea of how far you can go and what to watch for on other cars.
resullivan said:
If you race in the league you'll find there's right, and there's RIGHT.
Being right will earn you a mid-pack finish here, being RIGHT gets you to the top.
QT has it RIGHT! lol!
I don't mean to question anyone. I just don't want him to feel like it is going to take a ton of work to get it close. I guess there is right enough for scout racing then there is RIGHT for NPWDRL racing. I was actually going to mention when taking advice it doesn't hurt to see how they do in the NPWDRL. That being said, if QT says it, it is probably good information. Not saying it wasn't good information, but the way it came off is that drilling your axle holes is a really hard process to do. To be fair, I probably drilled about 20-30 sets of axle holes just Saturday for other scouts using the silver bullet, so my perception of how hard or easy it is to do may be skewed at this point.
EDIT:
This is OT, but you would be amazed how little some people care. I will sit there and tell them exactly what needs to be done, and they argue or just don't want to do it. More than once I had people bring me blocks with no markings for the holes and asked if I could just get it close. One guy even suggested that in the timeframe of 1-2 min I could set up a fence system with some clamps (he didn't call it a fence because he didn't know what he was talking about) because it was apparently way to much work for him to go measure and draw 4 x's on his son's block of wood.
EDIT:
This is OT, but you would be amazed how little some people care. I will sit there and tell them exactly what needs to be done, and they argue or just don't want to do it. More than once I had people bring me blocks with no markings for the holes and asked if I could just get it close. One guy even suggested that in the timeframe of 1-2 min I could set up a fence system with some clamps (he didn't call it a fence because he didn't know what he was talking about) because it was apparently way to much work for him to go measure and draw 4 x's on his son's block of wood.
G
Guest
Guest
5KidsRacing said:
Again, you can see by 5kids signature he knows way better than me, but here is my list of all possible variables in this process (minus any kind of question with the silver bullet or the block):
Drill/table orientation
Hole placement on block
Drill bit (crappy drill bit may not give you a straight hole)
Am I missing anything?
G
Guest
Guest
resullivan said:
Speed of drill, wood as free of grain as possible, letting drill do the work (as in not forcing it to cut), clearing out the chips as you go, chucking the drill as short as possible to get the job done.
bsb racing said:
I guess all things I do without thinking about them, but doesn't make them any less important. Still, my comment wasn't meant to be the name all, end all, single sentence cure all to drilling axle holes. I believe that in his circumstances (based on his results in the past and what he did to get the results), if he had a drill press properly oriented to the table, and a silver bullet it wouldn't be that difficult to drill holes himself which would be much better than whatever he used previously.
I agree with almost everything you guys said.... I mean when you drill anything anywhere you need to be concerned with things drill related like drill speed, bit wandering, grain, material, lubrication needs, etc... I mean those are things not just a problem drilling axle holes, but drilling anything. You will have the same problems using any fixture....
I just disagree with the misconception that the drill press table has to be perfectly square to the spindle to make a good drilled body with the Silver Bullet/The Block. It just isn't true.... Your drill press table leaning 5 thousandths to the left/right/back/front whatever will not cause you to have a bad drilling with the Silver Bullet. The error will be exactly repeated on the opposite side and you will still have a good body. My drill press slopes .004" to the back and a little to the left, always has and I have drill hundreds of blocks...
There are people in the pwd community that keep repeating this misconception over and over and over and they have no idea what they are talking about....
I just disagree with the misconception that the drill press table has to be perfectly square to the spindle to make a good drilled body with the Silver Bullet/The Block. It just isn't true.... Your drill press table leaning 5 thousandths to the left/right/back/front whatever will not cause you to have a bad drilling with the Silver Bullet. The error will be exactly repeated on the opposite side and you will still have a good body. My drill press slopes .004" to the back and a little to the left, always has and I have drill hundreds of blocks...
There are people in the pwd community that keep repeating this misconception over and over and over and they have no idea what they are talking about....
By the way I am not bashing on you resullivan.... I just hear it all the time and it is hard to explain why I am right.
5KidsRacing said:
Ah, I think we are on the same page. I think my main point is that as long as you are driling at a 90 degree angle to the silver bullet it doesn't even matter how you orient the silver bullet under the drill. People (including myself) have gotten hung up on fences and clamps and this and that when in reallity making sure to measure the hole correctly is the simple way and gets you pretty good results.
Maybe we aren't on the same page... lol...
A straight bar/fence, 2 clamps and keeping the Silver Bullet nailed down when drilling is the key to success, not a perfect drill press. You could mark one rear hole 1" in front of the other and with the Silver Bullet the two rear wheels would still go out to the heads when rolling forward and reverse, they just wouldn't be across from one another. The height of the hole from the bottom of the body is set by the fence..... the angle and direction the drill goes into the body is set by the Silver Bullet.... once the fence is nailed down the only thing the operator is choosing is where the hole is drilled in the back to front direction on the body..... and even if this measurement is off the body will still be good, the wheels just won't be directly across from one another.
A straight bar/fence, 2 clamps and keeping the Silver Bullet nailed down when drilling is the key to success, not a perfect drill press. You could mark one rear hole 1" in front of the other and with the Silver Bullet the two rear wheels would still go out to the heads when rolling forward and reverse, they just wouldn't be across from one another. The height of the hole from the bottom of the body is set by the fence..... the angle and direction the drill goes into the body is set by the Silver Bullet.... once the fence is nailed down the only thing the operator is choosing is where the hole is drilled in the back to front direction on the body..... and even if this measurement is off the body will still be good, the wheels just won't be directly across from one another.
5KidsRacing said:
The orientation of the drill to the table matters (whether you have to do anything about it is a different story). For purposes of the hole, not the location of the hole, the orientation of the silver bullet to the table or drill does not matter. When you start talking about a fence and hole location it now matters. If your drill press has a fence awesome, but what if it doesn't? How much room for error is there in trying to make your own fence that is just about perfectly square? Is the edge of your fence a perfect edge? What about the piece you are using to get that 1/8th from the bottm of tbe block, does it have two perfect edges? There are so many variables that I would recommend A) buy a press with a fence, or B) just measure and mark the spot for the holes. With so much room for error I can't imagine it is worth the trouble. Am I wrong?
Similar threads
