New Items THE FASTEST WHEELS AVAILABLE!!!!!

[Kinser Racing]

Much discussion took place about the loophole and possible dissent towards it here

http://www.pinewoodderbyonline.com/post/moi-7160152?highlight=moi&trail=15

I channeled the ghost of Julius and asked your question

And now for the big question...

Is there a loophole somewhere in those rules that would allow for a big advantage.

From my viewpoint there is a huge gaping loophole.

and the answer is YES!!
Rule need to be modified, or contention will arise, however- some are doing a version of this that is an advantage to the present BSA wheel without totally pushing the limits of the rule- we are talking about lowering the moment of inertia.

This post is not directly pointed at you Knotty! /images/boards/smilies/wave.gifHow ya doing man?

If you read the last post by QT in that thread it was exactly six months ago and I know QT was not running them. So, if all of this info has been out there for some time now, and everybody has had the opportunity to read it (level playing field). Why do we have the drama about John coming out with a limited run of them? The price (they are not made anymore)? The speed gain (it's been know since 5kids posted a year and a half ago)? It's my opinion that we are all men and a mans hobby can cost some money. This is still one of the cheapest (try going out for dinner and a movie for $65). If you want to run and your not quite up for contention, run the new style wheels and race yourself. We almost always tell new guys this and it's true. If your a contender, $65 is cheap. It doesn't matter what the rules are. I love you all, peace out! /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif

 

[KTMracer]

I like BR's idea. If for no other reason than to keep the point of entry low. If you were to organize the methods of racing by cost of entry you'd notice a very good correlation with the number of total participants.

Running (5K, 10K, marathons, etc.) - Extremely cheap. Many people do them.
Biking (MTB and road) - fairly cheap. Less people than runners, but still a lot.
Motocross - expensive but within reach of an average family. Still common but way less than the above.
Car - expensive. Not within the reach of the average family. Much less common than motocross.
Yacht - prohibitively expensive. Maybe only a few hundred racers in the world.

 

[Mister B Racing]

I read the post by Hurricrane where he said that his Nationals cars were not running the new wheels and he is a National champion running Cheetah style wheels. He has his prep process down for sure. I have not seen any posts by anyone else saying they were running the new wheels in SS at Nationals that were as fast as Hurricrane.

So... I still believe that with a good prep process you will be able to win with either wheel. But we will see what happens at up coming races.

if you're doing a good job you can win with either wheel.

I will respectfully disagree.

The new old wheel$ aren't faster because they are equal. They are faster because they offer an advantage. That advantage comes at a price and availability disadvantage.

With so many good builders at the top, you will need them to have a shot at winning in my opinion.

I said this before, kudos for coming up with the idea - it looks like that award goes to 5Kids.

 

[Knotty Racing]

This post is not directly pointed at you Knotty! /images/boards/smilies/wave.gifHow ya doing man?

Hanging in there.

If you want to run and your not quite up for contention, run the new style wheels and race yourself. We almost always tell new guys this and it's true.

Racing ourselves is what we have done for the past 5 years in scouts. Try and get better each year with the once a year builds.

The only problem with racing yourself is that your limited to improving against yourself. How do you benchmark your build and prep against the best if the industry?

Speed loss variables;
.005 for b409 wheels
.002 staging variance
.005 track tuning
.003 wheel cleaning
.??? wheel weights for aero?

what else is missing?

When do you decide if you should pony up to see if you're a contender?

 

[TRE]

TRE I am not seeing you volunteer info to me on how you made massive speed gains. The ones that share with me, I share with them. It is that simple. The other thing is a little thing called friend/loyalty. I know Goatie will try and tell you it is a bad thing as we have witnessed on yet another episode of How The Goat Turns, but the ones I can trust will be the ones testing this stuff for me.

I have always found it intriguing when you massively speed people up and they complain about the last .002 they don't have. The wheels are in short supply and it takes a lot of time to machine them. Regardless of the wheel you still have to beat the top dogs.

5K this is exactly what it was like when I broke the oil. LOL

Ya you are right I am wrong... I am an ass
I am sorry

 

[BulldogRacing]

I got Mad respect TRE

 

[Kinser Racing]

This post is not directly pointed at you Knotty! /images/boards/smilies/wave.gifHow ya doing man?

Hanging in there.

If you want to run and your not quite up for contention, run the new style wheels and race yourself. We almost always tell new guys this and it's true.

Racing ourselves is what we have done for the past 5 years in scouts. Try and get better each year with the once a year builds.

The only problem with racing yourself is that your limited to improving against yourself. How do you benchmark your build and prep against the best if the industry?

Speed loss variables;
.005 for b409 wheels
.002 staging variance
.005 track tuning
.003 wheel cleaning
.??? wheel weights for aero?

what else is missing?

When do you decide if you should pony up to see if you're a contender?

I really think it's a personal choice. For me, I always knew that oneday it would happen so I never quit. I dreamed of winning and setting track records, even when I was coming in the lower side of midpack and even last. I really believe that what you believe you can achieve. You also get out of this what you put into it. I just wish that I could apply that to some of the higher aspects of life. For me pwd is a life's lesson.

 

[Skippy Kicky]

Skippy is getting a little zippy on this reply.

Wow, lots of whyning in this thread.
I haven't run these wheels yet, but can't wait to get them on my SR and SS! I guess I lucked out at Nationals with a SR win and tie for third builder in SS without them, so ponder upon that those who complain. I'm looking forward to adding more speed thanks to John making them available. Thank you John!

 

[Guest]

Skippy is getting a little zippy on this reply. Wow, lots of whyning in this thread. I haven't run these wheels yet, but can't wait to get them on my SR and SS! I guess I lucked out at Nationals with a SR win and tie for third builder in SS without them, so ponder upon that those who complain. I'm looking forward to adding more speed thanks to John making them available. Thank you John!

You just might be unpleasantly surprised....or not......$65 and you will know

 

[Skippy Kicky]

Skippy is getting a little zippy on this reply. Wow, lots of whyning in this thread. I haven't run these wheels yet, but can't wait to get them on my SR and SS! I guess I lucked out at Nationals with a SR win and tie for third builder in SS without them, so ponder upon that those who complain. I'm looking forward to adding more speed thanks to John making them available. Thank you John!

You just might be unpleasantly surprised....or not......$65 and you will know

So true. With so many variables it's hard to know for sure until they are on the track. I'll just hope everything comes together smoothly and the track and timer will let us know.
I hope my last post didn't come off as arrogant, but I was a little irritated after reading the thread. I just want racers to know even if you don't have the money to spend on these wheels you can still compete.

 

[Kinser Racing]

Skippy is getting a little zippy on this reply. Wow, lots of whyning in this thread. I haven't run these wheels yet, but can't wait to get them on my SR and SS! I guess I lucked out at Nationals with a SR win and tie for third builder in SS without them, so ponder upon that those who complain. I'm looking forward to adding more speed thanks to John making them available. Thank you John!

You just might be unpleasantly surprised....or not......$65 and you will know

So true. With so many variables it's hard to know for sure until they are on the track. I'll just hope everything comes together smoothly and the track and timer will let us know. I hope my last post didn't come off as arrogant, but I was a little irritated after reading the thread. I just want racers to know even if you don't have the money to spend on these wheels you can still compete.

You're anything but arrogant. You're one of the most humble guys I know Skippy! /images/boards/smilies/thumb.gif

 

[Mister B Racing]

I agree that you can still compete if you are using the Cheetahs. Just look at SS at MA, Hurricrane said he was using V3's and he was faster than everyone else and he is a national champion. I run in the middle of the pack in SS. The new wheels may make my car faster by .005 seconds but then I'll just be .005 seconds faster in the middle of the pack. I need to work on a lot of stuff and finish a lot higher before worrying if a new version of wheel will make any difference in my finish positions. But it is good that the new wheels are available to all. New ideas and new products keeps this hobby/sport evolving and exciting!

 

[Bullet]

I have not really been on the site since nationals due to personal reasons...but wow!

You know, John tries to bring something to everyone and gets criticized for it? Taking something new, from an idea to instantly available and given to everyone, just isnt a reality. Then there's a guy out there claiming he's had some speed secret and sitting on it for four year or something? What did John do when he got his hands on some of these old style wheels? He makes them available to everyone.

I had a few ideas and been discussing with John since before the MOTM finals...a way that I wanted to try to cut a set of wheels. There was attempt around that time but it wasnt exactly what I was trying to ask for so we had to work on it some more. I believe we came up with some good ideas and hopefully some of those are on the V4's. John did not "select" me to try new wheels...I had some ideas and asked him to work with me on it since I cannot cut wheels. I believe this is the type of thing John was mentioning about working with people to get some more speed out there.

John is not selecting who gets the "good" stuff...I went to him with an idea on cutting wheels. I was running the old style wheels on my BASX at nationals cuz I was able to get my hands on some and John cut them for me. Know how I learned about these old style wheels and what could be done with them?? The 5K post, the old guy talking about hoops and discs...put a few ideas together... ALL the information was on this forum... I then realized guys who were able to get some already were running them on their own. Dont make the mistake of thinking this is the first time these wheels have been run, or that all of them out there came from John...its just that he is able to offer them to everyone now in limited quantities.

People have known about these old style wheels and have been running them long before I ever started racing. You still have to build a good car, put on a good prep and tune it right. The wheels I had on my BASX were apparently fast, but they're not "Hero wheels" turning a slow car into a winner.

 

[BulldogRacing]

I really appreciate the fact that Bullet just told me exactly what he ran at nationals! Thanks man! I have been really thankful for the posts By hurricrane and bullet. You guys are really fast with or with out the magic wheels. It gives us all hope. Hard work pays off and we need to search all posts with the intent of trying what guys have already told us. I have learned so much since I've read many of the older posts that I now understand things that were way over my head before. Thanks for sharing the back stories on these wheels.

 

[Falcon777]

I have read this entire tread and here are my overall comments - for what it is worth. The idea of pre 2009 wheels came out in 2013 and a few racers were picking up on the idea including John. With is experience and resources, John attempt to improve the pre 2009 concept and sent the wheels out for product testing to a few racers who are consistently fast and who's preps are consistent which only makes sense. The bottom line is the wheels could have been slower which is a calculated rick these racers took. I am sure no one here would have complained if their times were significantly slower. With the satisfactory testing complete, John can now offer a reliable product to the masses. This makes sense to me. I do not believe there was any malice or ill intent here, just an R&D guy testing his product before it can be brought to the market place.

In terms of using them in the BSX series, I feel the intention of this division should be redefined. My understanding is that it was intended to generate interest in our sport and offer a low cost option for new racers or others who cannot afford the expensive equipment required to race competitively in the other divisions. Is the division intended for pro league racers to dominate? Does this help bring new people into the sport when they are getting creamed by the pros? Is new equipment such as expensive wheels, etc. going to increase interest or detract? These are questions that need to addressed and addressed in such a way that encourages participation and growth at the entry level. Perhaps the division should exempt the top 30 league racers from participation, or limit the use of the pre 2009 wheels, etc. The point is it seems the intent of the BSAX Division is getting clouded and perhaps could benefit from a thoughtful reevaluation in terms of its intent. Granted we all want to win but at the expense of league growth, is it worth it. Perhaps it is time to redefine who the BSAX is intended for and how best to achieve that objective.

 

[Mr Chips Racing]

Boys I have mulled over this posting for long enough and figured its time for Mr. Chips to chime in with my usual rational thought and discernment of whiners and idiots.

The statements of select people is not something that happens here Probably to many of your surprise, at times of unemployment challenges DD4H would allow me to work in his shop filling orders for you. Some of you are great guys and some are overly entitled. I have worked with John for the 6 years I have been racing with him. The friendship is worth way more than the cars on the track. John and I have spent hundreds of hours testing together. I have seen things many of you have never heard about. So much info is available now days that anyone can be fast. Just because someone finds some speed and we all act like sheep to follow, how can you blame 1 guy or a group of guys? An example of this is the puma weights. John and I built prototypes of this back in the spring of 2013 long before anyone used them. Another was the discovery of what made 1 person dominate in the bearing class. His wheels were lighter than everyone elses. Its simple. John runs a business first and a league is a way to help promote his business. Stop acting like a bunch of little sissy girls in middle school. This is an adult league not some place to cry when you don't win. Fact is, I race for fun! I enjoy the friendships I have made. If you are complaining of costs being too high, do something about it. Buy a lathe and make your own wheels. This is a hobby for racers. What do we really get? A plastic dust collector and bragging rights? Come on already. Put it back into perspective. These are little wooden cars that go down a track and to see who has the skillset to compete. I shipped in cars for my first time as a proxy since I no longer live in Utah. No track, no tuning and although I did not win a single race, I had a great time. Yes I have run with my friends John, Kinser, QT, Skippy and many more over the years. I was around when those guys were slow and guess what, they WORKED at it. Nothing was handed to them. Nothing was handed to me. Don't you think that if I have all the knowledge and access to everything DD4H has available that I should be dominating? Fact is, I should but I am not. Settle down and put this all back into perspective. Race with us and have fun. If you want to whine and piss and moan there are other places to go do this. Fact is life is not about the soft way of all participants get a trophy. Real life allows those to succeed are the true winners. Those of you who think otherwise have just misspelled the word WHINERS.

Chips over an out!

 

[BulldogRacing]

misspelled the word WHINERS.

I am going to use this line Mr. Chips. I love it!

 

[down4derby]

Just because someone finds some speed and we all act like sheep to follow, how can you blame 1 guy or a group of guys? An example of this is the puma weights. John and I built prototypes of this back in the spring of 2013 long before anyone used them.

 

[Vitamin K]

Warning: Opinions ahead.

I'm not in agreement with labeling those with dissent to be 'whiners'.

First off, I don't think anybody really has a problem with these wheels being used outside of BASX. Folks are all about better speed through better technology. That's one of the whole points of Pinewood racing, right?

The BASX class, however, is meant to be "low cost". Meaning, the advantage to be gained by spending more money is supposed to be mitigated by the rules. Hence the lack of fenders. Hence the wheel weight limit...which was meant (correct me if I'm wrong) to sharply limit the amount of material that you could remove from a wheel and, in turn, level the playing field for modded wheels. The idea being that if you bought a set of BASX wheels for the race, you'd be running with the best of them, so far as raw wheels are concerned.

Now, the old-style-wheel-cut-down-to-new-style-weight opens up a loophole in the weight limit, since it means you can optimize the weight distribution and have more of that rotational mass in the center of the wheel. It is a brilliant idea. If I were running a BASX race (with the rules as currently worded) and some racers entered with these wheels, I would applaud their ingenuity, let them run the race, and then promptly modify the rules to close the loophole.

Now, I know there's the chorus of "If you are only racing to win, you're wasting your time" or "Who cares if you're not the fastest, just race against yourself." Both of these are true statements. However, they do not address the very point of having race divisions at all. If both of those statements are the end-all, be-all of why I'm racing, I could very well just build a BASX-level car and enter it into the Unlimited class, couldn't I?

My point boils down to: If the BASX class is truly meant to be a "low cost" class, then all efforts should be made to preserve this, and allow novice builders to build cars with parts that have the same speed potential as the big boys who are racing in the class. There are plenty of predator wheels to be sold to racers with bigger budgets in the faster classes.

And there's my opinion. That and six dollars will get you a latte at your favorite coffee chain.

 

[Mr Chips Racing]

VK thanks for your thoughts. If you noticed Skippy mentioned he himself has not used these wheels along with Bullet and others. It is possible to be fast with the info that is out there on a budget for the BASX class.

I knew I could count on you to jump into the ring with me again on anything I posted as potentially controversial. What is it going to take for you to build and send in a car?

How about this idea. I have never run BASX in this league. I will build a car with current this year made wheels. You and I have a PINKS race. Then the looser has to publicly recant anything mentioned in this thread.

Here is where else it gets interesting. I do not have a track so I have no way to track tune prior to race day.

What do you say? This way we can both put our money where our mouth - er keyboard typing is!